RE: [SAGE] Computer Sciences degrees in IT

["Jeffery S. Malloch" <jmall@sympatico.ca>]

Hi Folks,

I have been reading intently as I am one of those experience only sysadmins
that you've been talking about.  And I think Mr. Hall hit on something that
I'd like to elaborate on.

First, let me tell you I am a University drop-out as I could not see myself
spending umpteen thousands of dollars for something I didn't like.  Do we
really know what we want to be at 19 (17-18 in the US)?  I felt (and still
feel) that I did/do have a BIG learning bug but hated the way in which we
are shoehorned into a "major" or a specific Bachelors degree which also
requires a rigid course regimen.  I am basically a person who likes to
LEARN.

I also ended up in system administration quite by an accident of life.  In
Canada, HRDC was offering courses and one was for systems administration
through a local college.  It was 8 hours a day for around 9 months and at
the end I was given a certification in Unix Systems Administration.  To tell
you the truth I was woefully unprepared for what our jobs were all about but
was lucky enough to get a great lower level position where I was able to get
to the guts of what this is all about.  I also found I had a nack for it so
I stuck with it and it has rewarded me well.  The bottom line here is after
more then 10 years (almost 15 - OUCH!) I am a site lead for a major
corporation.  I manage everything from when the WAN hits the building, right
to the monitors on peoples' desks.  I think I can be proud of my
accomplishments as very few get to pretty much manage themselves,
consistently have highly positive yearly reviews and also touch on every
technical requirement of sysadminning.  I am in a position where I'm pretty
much left to my own devices (my manager resides 1000s of miles away).
Master of my own domain if you will :)

Which brings me to my point...

All of these accomplishments mean almost squat because I don't have a
degree.  I feel as if most of the people I support and work with lift their
noses to me as soon as they find out I don't have a Masters let alone a
Bachelors even if I've proven time-and-time again that I can do this job and
do it well.  I can't see myself as a CIO one day even if I have aspirations
to become one.  But the sad part is if I were to go back to school I doubt
I'd do this again either.  I'm a big fan of the sciences and would probably
want to spend my money there if I had the chance.  

So here I am.  Battered, beaten and ready to be spit out (if you know what
working in high tech is like you'll understand).  I am becoming very
pessemistic about this profession.

And that's really too bad.  Because it's a good one.  I've seen the rewards.
The joy of finding that solution that's been dogging you for god knows how
long.  The joy of making that person's day when you fix something for them
that has been a pain in their arse.  Even the joy of making an income that
really is enough to support your family comfortably.  

And I sincerely believe I have something to offer it too.  But who would
actually listen to me if they knew that I didn't go to school to learn it.
Two words folks...  IMHO:

No one.

Thanks for reading,

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-sage-members@usenix.org [mailto:owner-sage-members@usenix.org]
On Behalf Of Jon 'maddog' Hall
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 2:41 PM
To: Brad Knowles
Cc: Christopher Hubbell; SAGE list
Subject: Re: [SAGE] Computer Sciences degrees in IT

On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 12:10 -0500, Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 8:01 AM -0400 3/25/07, Christopher Hubbell wrote:
> 
> >  It almost seems like people have something against degree programs; 
> > a  subtle resentment.
> 
> A resentment against requiring them, yes.  A resentment against 
> clueless HR droids who use them as a tool to weed out anyone who is 
> not adequately buzzword compliant, yes.
> 
> A resentment against actually having them, no.
> 
Well said, Brad.

I would like to tell a true story which I sent out privately to someone
earlier, but I think illustrates the point:

Years ago I worked for a company as a Sys Admin, and I had a staff of four
Technical Assistants (TAs) working for me.  Bright kids, but they all had
Associates (2-year) Degrees, not the Master-level degree that you needed to
be hired as a "real" employee.  Since I had my Masters, I was a "real
employee".

I had been been working for them for about three and one-half years and I
liked the organization and the work.

One day one of my TAs came to me with an idea that I thought was great.
I wanted him to get the credit for it, so I told him to tell it to our
supervisor.  The kid kind of laughed and told me that our supervisor would
not listen to him.  I said "Why not? It is a great idea."  The kid said that
it was because he did not have a Master's degree.  I looked around the room
and the other three technical assistants were all nodding in agreement.

I found this hard to believe, so we did an "experiment".  We both went to
the supervisor and the kid told our supervisor the idea.  "That idea will
never work", said the supervisor.  We then waited two weeks and both of us
went back to the same supervisor, and in almost exactly the same words I
told him the same idea.  "Best thing since sliced bread!"
came back the reply, "Let's implement it immediately."

I was so mad at the supervisor I could not see straight.

Well, it could be that the supervisor had a week to mull the idea over, and
it could be his sub-conscious had thought it through so that he now accepted
the idea that he had rejected before, but I knew I could no longer work for
an organization that prided educational position over good ideas, no matter
how successful they had been in the past.  So two weeks later I was working
for Digital Equipment Corporation in their Unix Group, where I never knew if
the person next to me was a high-school drop out or a Ph.D.  All that
mattered was performance.  And within two years each of my TAs had followed
me to Digital.

The company I left?  AT&T Bell Labs. 

maddog